Interview: Wangari Maathai on development, the environment and globalization

Peter Hardie of TransAfrica Forum: For many years you have been very outspoken in your criticism of globalization and the conditions and restrictions imposed on African trade. How do you see the relationship between globalization and deforestation? What changes do you see in trade and trade policies that might limit deforestation and possibly reverse its effects?

Wangari Maathai: The fact is that in the context of globalization we must be fair in trade, especially for countries that are poor, and that are not able to compete in the open market. We must not forget that many of these countries that now are strong politically and economically and are demanding that poorer countries throw open their doors for trade, themselves came to prominence economically because they protected their industries – they protected their resources until they were able to compete. So it is very unfair when such countries say “open up your markets; this is free trade”. It may be free trade for them, but for the poorer countries it is exploitation with a force that poor countries cannot really stand.

The result is that people are pushed farther into poverty, because they are not able to compete; and if they go back into poverty of course they resort to natural resources, and the biggest resources that they depend on are land for production of their food; and firewood obtained by cutting down of trees. Those who are poorest, they resort to those forests and cut them down in order to generate the income that they need. The poorer they become the more they are forced to exploit their natural resources, especially forests.
TAF: Do you think that there is a relationship between debt cancellation and deforestation in Africa?

WM: Absolutely. One of the reasons that we definitely have been part of the campaign to cancel the debt is that governments, in fear of being reprimanded or punished by strong countries, will sacrifice their people. They sacrifice the education of their people, they sacrifice health care, they sacrifice industries, to produce revenue, much of which is sent to service the debt. And so they leave the people extremely poor and again in the same vicious cycle: they get poorer, they exploit the resources, and this drives them into deeper poverty. Therefore, it is not surprising that we are saying that Africa is getting poorer and poorer every year. We are sometimes presented as if we are not working hard, as if we are corrupt – I’m not saying that some governments haven’t been – but it is a very, very unfair when people know that poverty is caused because governments have to service these debts.

Poverty's choices: deforestation or starvation

TAF: People in some countries, as you indicated, are forced to choose between poverty and the use, maybe the exploitation, of existing natural resources. It becomes a difficult dilemma in some developing countries when you are faced with a community of farmers who have to choose between growing a profitable crop and clearing the land to grow a profitable crop, and the alternative, which might be poverty.

WM: Precisely. In a country like Kenya, we produce the best coffee and the best tea in the world. And we push our land so much in order to produce more and more coffee, so that we can make more money in the market to service those debts and of course meet some of the basic needs, and so those crops are the main reason for the destruction of the environment.
I also want to say that, when it comes to trade, it is also important to focus our attention on ourselves at the national level and see to what extent those of us who are in power and who are responsible for governance are indeed responsible for the impoverishment of many of our people. We have created a class of people in many poor countries, especially in Africa, a small group of people who live in extreme prosperity. They live very comfortably because they are able to inequitably distribute resources that are available.

For example the resources from coffee, they go to a very small group of people, twenty percent at most, and the remaining eighty percent are left extremely poor. So I want to say that as we fight for greater equitable trade at the global level it is extremely important for us to focus inside our own countries and to see the extent to which those of us who are in power, the ruling elite, are very unjust to the majority of people in the country.

Leadership's commitment to justice

TAF: You have raised a very important, and maybe difficult, topic which is the challenge of leadership, the challenge of elected officials in developing countries, to maintain a commitment to justice. How have you experienced that yourself as an advocate, an activist, in your country, having yourself moved into government? You describe yourself as the elite but you clearly remain committed to the poor, the oppressed. Can you talk about your experience in government and whether you feel you have had some success in moving the government?

WM: Well, I think that we have made a very important contribution towards improving governance in our country, and I know that this is something that is happening in many countries in Africa. I know that there has been a greater respect for democratic governance and that more and more countries in Africa are being ruled much better now than they were maybe a decade or two ago. We are still a long way from having leaders who are truly committed to the elevation of the majority of the people from poverty with the resources that are within the nation rather than resources that would come from other countries in the form of aid. I think that it is not something that you can change overnight because so many of us have become used to a lifestyle that we do not want to change.

For example, when we went into government in the year 2003, I was amazed by how many ministers would not ride in the same Mercedes [cars] that had been used by their colleagues in the previous administration. They were very keen on getting new cars, sometimes more than two cars for one person. It is not only the ministers, but also senior civil servants. It becomes a fashion to ride a certain make of car, to have many cars and to buy lots of luxury items for their office. That should be absolutely unacceptable in a country which also claims to the international community that 56 percent of our people are living below the poverty line. How can we justify these kinds of expenditures?
I remember one time, as a token, I requested – in a meeting – that we start using both sides of a sheet of paper. Of course people laughed, but think of the amount of paper that is used in government offices throughout the year; if you use both sides of the paper you would not only reduce the budget for stationery but you would also reduce the amount of trees that are cut in order to produce paper.

Even though it’s a very small thing and looks very insignificant, nationally it can have a big impact. It can help reduce that 56 percent below the poverty level, and also contribute towards education. Our president [Mwai Kibaki] was very courageous in declaring that Kenya will provide free primary education. I know we are using a lot of money for that, but if we are efficient and less expensive in our lifestyles, we can provide even high school education, we can revive the polytechnic schools which would give many of our children the skills they need in order to get employment.

So some of these measures I know are doable at the national level. We don’t need a penny more, we just need to use the resources we have more efficiently, so that when we go to look for aid, to ask for debts to be forgiven, we can truly raise the level of our people, and we can begin to say 10 percent or 20 percent of our people live below the poverty line, rather than 56 percent!

Neo-colonial corporate exploitation

TAF: We at TransAfrica have talked a great deal about the origins of corruption and bad government really going back to pre-colonial and colonial times; that there is a relationship between the corruption we see in some governments and the relationship those governments have with external forces: the wealthier nations of the world as well as the multi-national corporations that do business in these countries. Can you talk a little bit about what kinds of changes you are looking for in the foreign policies of the wealthier countries, including the United States, and in the behavior of corporations in Africa and the developing world?

WM: Well, I would like to echo the words of some of the spokespersons for Africa who are very, very respectable leaders trying very hard to put the continent back on track. I’m speaking about leaders such as President Obasanjo of Nigeria, who is the [former] chairman of the African Union (AU), President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa, President Kagame of Rwanda and President Kibaki, our president, who I think has made a very brave decision to provide one of the Millennium Development Goals, education, straight off, especially at the primary level. Many of these leaders, especially those who have responsibility at the regional level, like President Obasanjo, are talking about the fact that it is very important for all leaders in Africa to look inwards, and first and foremost correct governance, and cut the cord or change the style that they inherited from the colonial administration.

As you say, and as many know so we don’t need to dwell on it, when we took over from the British, we really only changed the guards. We so admired the way of life they were leading we copied them and emulated them and just literally stepped into their shoes, without considering the fact that the reason we had gotten rid of them is that we did not like the way they were exploiting us in order to support that lifestyle. We stepped into their shoes and started exploiting our own people. There is no excuse for that, and some leaders at the moment ought to be ashamed of themselves when they exploit their own people in order to support a lifestyle that is equivalent to lifestyles in developed countries.

These presidents I mentioned are really emphasizing good governance. I have had the privilege of attending meetings, such as the recent meeting of the African Union, and I was really impressed by the very strong commitment that these leaders have to encouraging their colleagues to improve governance.

The other thrust is urging developed countries, especially the Group of Eight, to cancel the debt of the poorer countries so that that burden can be eliminated and they can divert those resources to improving the quality of life for people at the national level.

And the third is, of course to remove trade barriers that continue to be put in front of many of the products of African countries, as well as the demand that all African countries open up their markets. Now we all know that governments have been inviting many countries and companies to come and invest in Africa, and this has been seen as one way in which wealth could be created in Africa. But many companies when they come to invest in Africa, again – going back to bad governance – they really come to exploit, and they are given such leeway that all they do is expatriate all their profits and usually do very little towards alleviating poverty and improving the quality of life for people – often instead even polluting the environment to the extent that sometimes we wonder, “what did we get out of that?”

We need to have a new consciousness among corporations, such that when they go to do business there [in Africa] it is not about exploitation. It is a matter of doing business that is fair and honest, fair in the sense that you are also developing the country in which you are doing business. This is what corporations are now calling “corporate responsibility” towards the communities in which they are doing business.

This does not mean that we do not need trade. These leaders have also expressed the fact that we still need trade but this trade must also be a bit fairer. There is some trade that is given that really doesn’t do much for us, in many ways it becomes a business for its own ends. For example, if we are going to be given trade to buy new arms, what has that to do with poverty? How is that going to make it possible for children to go to school, or for polytechnic schools to be raised, or for universities to be equipped so that they can give a skilled education to the graduates, so that when they complete their studies they not only find jobs, but are able to create jobs themselves? So aid must be aid that truly helps those countries, not aid that only helps countries to buy a product from the country that is giving the aid.
Maathai's influence in African regional organizations

TAF: So true. You have done a good bit of advocacy work at a regional and probably continental level. Is that work, given your position in government, extended now to the continental bodies such as the AU, and are you seeing some interest and movement at that level in addressing the environmental concerns for which you have been advocating?

WM: Well, I think that receiving this Nobel Prize has really given me an extraordinary position and opportunity to meet many of our leaders and to understand some of the issues that they are facing. For example, I have been asked by the eleven heads of state within the Congo Basin to be a goodwill ambassador for the Congo forest ecosystem. What these heads of state want is to come together and collectively try to save the forest. I consider that an extraordinary moment because there are very few occasions in Africa when you see heads of state coming together and expressing a desire to work together towards a common goal, in this case to save that huge forest ecosystem.

I find myself more and more being called upon to articulate issues that have significance at the regional level, such as the Congo basin ecosystem. I’m asking governments, corporations, I’m asking foundations, and I’m asking even individuals who are interested in saving that forest – which is very important for Africa but also really important for the world with respect to climate change – to come and assist these governments. They have created what they are calling a strategic plan. The current chairman of that partnership is the president of Gabon [Omar Bongo] and he is very keen to talk to anyone who would be interested in supporting this effort. I just think it is such an extraordinary indicator of the new thinking in Africa, the new willingness in Africa for heads of state not to be too preoccupied with egos but to really work for the betterment of Africa by conserving such an important ecosystem.

The other engagement that I have been asked to take on is to help the African Union to mobilize civil society. We had previously the Organization of African Unity, and that was modeled like a club for the heads of states of Africa, but now they have converted that into the African Union (AU). The African Union now wants to involve the African people, it wants to involve civil society; I think that is a very innovative and very courageous thing to do.

They asked me to help them organize an assembly, an organ of civil society comprised of two persons in every country, to advise the African Union on how best to move forward. It could be a wonderful agent of change in Africa because it could address issues of government, and issues of environmental degradation; it could mobilize people at the grassroots so they are encouraged to work at the community level. It is such a great opportunity for change and of course it requires a lot of resources but I know there are people who are very interested in creating a strong civil society in Africa, and I will be very, very happy to work with them

TAF: Do you have thoughts about the role and relationship of the Sixth Region (the African Diaspora) to your work, to the issues that you’ve been involved in, and what would you say not only to African Americans and other African descendants here in this hemisphere, but to all citizens in this hemisphere as well, about how they can help? What kinds of things they should be pushing their governments on? What kind of things should they do in their personal lives to make a difference that would be meaningful?

WM: Well, actually people in the Diaspora will be very happy to know that the African Union was very conscious of them and their role; in fact, just recently when the heads of state met in Tripoli [Libya], they did indeed endorse [the notion] that the Civil Society [project] must include the Diaspora. I was appointed in March 2005, and in April I had the first meeting of the steering committee and we have just completed a strategic plan. People who are interested and want to see where the Diaspora comes in can get in touch with us and we would share with them the information on how they can organize themselves in the Diaspora.

People in Africa don’t know enough about the Diaspora, because that history was kept from them both during the colonial era and even during the post-colonial era. I also think that people in the Diaspora are also fed a lot of misinformation about the African continent so there is a great need for us to work together in order to inform ourselves, to bridge some of the gaps that are present, and to work together towards alleviating our continent’s problems and work towards improving our image in the world. Only we can improve that image and present ourselves at the world table with the respect and image that we ourselves want and create, rather than the image that other people create for us.

I actually find this to be an exciting moment. We should seize it, and if there are people here who would like to work with the Diaspora, I would be very happy to start that process. At the moment I am looking for funds, because you can’t do very much without money and I would be very, very happy to share the strategic plan with anyone interested. It is also possible to write Professor Oumar Konare in Addis Ababa who is very happy to share that strategic plan for civil society, in Africa and the Diaspora.

TAF: We would be very excited to help in whatever way we can here at TransAfrica Forum; we certainly want to spread word of your work as well as the work of the AU. Best wishes to you in your work and please let us know if there is anything we can do to be supportive of you or to help get your word out here in the United States when you’re here.

WM: My daughter and a team of others are actually establishing a Green Belt Movement International here in New York and so they will be here and you can actually reach them through our website, www.greenbeltmovement.org.
TAF: Thank you very much for your time and words of wisdom.