We are fatigued with charity, we know we can do it ourselves

PAUL MASON: What's the one principle that drives you as an activist?

MARIE SHABA: Justice - I've seen a lot of injustices in my life. I
was born in the 1940s - as a young person I've seen the struggle for
independence not only for Tanzania but for the whole continent and
that's what's been driving me.

PM: What are the biggest problems facing you that the G8 could
actually do something about?

MS: One of the most important things they have to do is keep their
promises - we are dealing here with a human race, and when you make a
promise and you want the support of somebody, then you have to fulfil
your promise. Africa has gone through so much and not been able to
get its fair deal in trade in governance, everything. The G8 has to
recognise and accept that.

PM: Give me a concrete example of the kind of poverty you have to
deal with?

MS: These days we have a very strange kind of impoverishment: most of
our industries - the parastatals - have been privatised. And you find
women who used to be the backbone in agriculture, especially for food
security, have all gone into towns now - because with the Structural
Adjustment Programmes a lot of subsidies were taken away from the
farmers so most of the men left the women in the village - and
without subsidies women could not farm even for subsistence. So most
of them are moving into towns. And this is a great phenomenon in my
country, because then you have to depend on food from others - and
you have no respect if you depend on food from others.

So what is happening you find women now: they are employed in the
flower industry in Arusha. They employ a lot of women because they
are cheaper, they are careful in the way they handle flowers, but
they are not protected health-wise, and they deal with a lot of
pesticides, they suffer a lot of diseases: they are like human beings
saturated with pesticide in their bodies. And when you are sick they
just chuck you out, employ another one. And if this woman falls sick
and dies, she leaves behind orphans. So in our country we are saying
"for every rose that somebody in Europe wears there is the life of an
African woman". So this kind of impoverishment is quite severe and
it's frightening, and its all because of liberalisation.

PM: What are people doing for themselves? When people in this country
(the United Kingdom) faced problems like that, in the 19th century,
they got organised to do something about it...

MS: We come from a different background: immediately after
independence we had our own brand of socialism - and the main part
was to have a human rights culture: that's what Ujamaa meant. And
self-reliance. We had a one-party system so our mindset was totally
different - there was a lot of trust, faith that the government would
take care of people. That they would enter contracts for the
interests of the people. But after 1987 when Structural Adjustment
came in, we began to see different behaviour - and a lot of people
didn't realise what was happening.

PM: So what are people doing now?

MS: We are organising - the NGOs have been in the forefront:
education, to make people realise they have the power to change
things through elections, through organising in groups, support each
other. If people are not organising, we wouldn't be here. It means
people are organising to find solutions - especially women in the
informal sector. They cushion the impact of some of the economic
policies, because in the informal sector they sell goods from small
producers, and at the end of the day they survive: if it were not for
these small producers - the so-called illiterate women, we'd be
telling a different story.

PM: A lot of people here ask: why can't Africans help themselves -
why can't they do what South Korea has done and go from farming to
industry in one big leap?

MS: That's blaming the victim - we are here not because we are lazy,
unintelligent. If I was the leader of Tanzania, and the economy was
down, and here is somebody who says: "I can give you money, BUT" ....
the choice is: do you refuse and let your people die, or to agree and
hope things get better? That's what happened to most of our leaders;
they've been hoping things will change - so its blaming the victim.

PM: If the G8 could only do one thing what would it be?

MS: Fair trade!

PM: But that's not even on the agenda of the G8...

MS: We are wondering why. Because with charity - we are all so
fatigued as recipients of charity, begging, when we know we can do it
ourselves. The capitalist system is so strong and been there so many
years - and they keep on changing their strategies. But it's just
what Emma (Thompson) was saying: capitalism is there to maximise
profits. And this means we need to rearrange our mindset.

PM: What is the mood in some of the shanty towns and villages you
work in? Do people know about the G8 and the international debate
that's going on about African poverty?

MS: No. A lot of people blame the government. That's the immediate
thing they can see - they don't understand the intricate issues
behind it all. For example our president is on the Africa Commission,
and Blair is the chair of G8, so they might be aware that our issues
are being discussed - but not much.

PM: So there's no big feeling on the streets - that the G8 must do
something, and this is the big chance?

MS: What people are saying is they blame it all on the (African)
leaders - so its up to people like us to say we shouldn't blame our
leaders because we will just fight each other and let the G8
countries off. Civic education is a process: you (Britain) have been
there for a long time; we've been independent only since 1961 and
there are a lot of things happening that are happening too fast: but
slowly the picture is beginning to unfold.

PM: If it all goes well at Gleneagles, and you get everything you
want, what kind of a difference could it make? What would we see in
10 years time?

MS: It will bring back self-confidence. Right now, as Africans, I
think we have lost self-esteem - we feel like we are the poorest of
the poorest, like we can't even think for ourselves; like everything
has to be thought out somewhere in Europe - even how to govern
ourselves. So there is lack of self-esteem. But should we get the
solidarity and confidence of other people, we have all the resources
we need. We are blessed with all the resources: human, material, land
- everything. So the support we need should go to strengthening the
structures for continuity and transparency, so that more people will
know what's happening - and what opportunities are there. That's more
important than giving us money to settle things.

And another thing, with trade, would be to help us compete: we need a
lot of preparation - and we need to start it locally, or maybe
regionally before we can even compete abroad - so we need that space.
That's what the G8 can do: give us space to develop at our own pace.